PDA Informed Play Therapy

This weeks special guest is the amazing Bryony who is actually one of the awesome parents in the PDA Parent Tribe!

Bryony is a PDA parent and a PDA informed play therapist and talks about her lived experience as both. This is such an amazing episode!

Please subscribe, download, rate & review the pod, it really helps with my ratings.

Love Ya 

Jessie x 

SMGB Business Academy
Learn how to build a profitable business from scratch - No experience needed!

Nesti Pod
Recommended by Sleep Therapists & Occupational Therapists Use: JESSIE10 for discount at checkout!

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Well, I have got a very special guest this week, and I am really honoured that Brianie, who is in the PDA parent circle, also lives about five minutes from my house. I've just we've just realized, which is so insane. I actually can't believe that. But thank you, Brianie, and I can't believe that you thought that I wouldn't want you on here. And that's wild.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

No, I know. Wild.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

So so wild. But Brian, introduce yourself, Briany, so that everybody knows who you are and why you are, I guess, on the Keeping Shit Real podcast this week.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Okay, so my name is Briany. I've got two, first and foremost, I've got a mum to two children, 10 and 6. 10-year-old is Audi HD, and my six-year-old is Audi HD with a PDA profile. Yeah. So point one. And then I'm also a play. I'm a very valid void.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Like that's it.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

We can finish it now. That is the most relevant, isn't it? That is the most relevant. And a play therapist. And a play therapist, yeah, who specializes supporting PDA families now.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Yeah. And also we've been chatting for a good 45 minutes before we started recording this. So you're obviously you're a play therapist before your son was, you know, it started to what come to light that he had a PDA profile. What's what has taken you to go down that route of specializing in play therapy for children that have got PDA?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

I think it just kind of happened that way. I think I think so many people that I know that work in the space of PDA or are making waves in the space of PDA are mums to PDAers or are PDA themselves. Like yeah, and I think that lived experience is really important. But I also feel that you know lots of play therapists, you know, are you know, PDA is seem to be flooding the gates of play therapy at the moment, and I think we're all seeing more and more PDA children come for support, parents reaching out for therapeutic support in the in the way of play therapy. So, and I think I've just been kind of working with those families, and you know, I think when you've got your own PDA, you kind of do a deep dive into PDA, don't you? And you live and breathe it, especially I'm not a divergent, as I know we've talked about. So my special interest is my kids.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

My hyperfixation.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

My hyperfixation is PDA. And so naturally I kind of fall in in that way, and it's and it's work that I just find really valuable and lovely and wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

So yeah, and it's super rewarding, and you know, and I say for those of you that are listening, Riney and I have been chatting for about 45 minutes, and it's not until I think sometime your lived in experience is I think is so so important as a parent to a PDA, because there is that general consensus still, because it's not in the DSM 5 manual, there are a lot of places out there, schools, colleges, whoever, healthcare professionals, dare I say it, I'm gonna say it, that don't believe that the PDA is a thing. Absolutely. I suffer from imposter syndrome still all the time, as because I think sometimes because I'm not a teacher, but actually, parents lived in experience is so so important to somebody who claims to know if whether or not they've got a child or they've worked with kids. Actually, I think as a parent, our voices are the most un most over the most valued, but the most underheard as well, because they just people, yeah, it takes a lot for people to try and understand something that they have no experience or you know, or they just don't know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Yeah, absolutely. And I and I do find, you know, I think when I'm working with families of PDA children, it feels very much like, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not there. I'm at I of course I'm there as therapists, but I'm also there as the empathy side of the fact that I feel in your shoes and I know exactly how you feel. Yeah, exactly. And I and I really kind of hear that, you know, and can hold that and and and can I've been on that side of things, and I and I say to them, like, you know, my house is not, I don't just because I'm a play therapist, it's a shit show 90% of the time. And don't put me on a pedestal.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

That's not a top tip of the top tip of PDA parenting is you know, no two days are ever the same. They're saying what the fuck moments exactly that, yeah. Keeping on that, and that's and I think obviously you see a lot of PDA parents, I speak to a lot of PDA parents, I think that's where the the uh the main struggle can really is really difficult for them because sometimes they get you get into and I'm guilty of this, and we this happens to us quite a lot. We get into that these these decent rhythms where everything's okay, you know, loss of autonomy is all right for him, and then at the fucking blue, you do exactly the same thing and nothing works, and it just then the shit hits the fan, and you're like, right, yeah, back to square one. Exactly. There's no cure, think you've got it sorted, it generally doesn't work out like that.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Yeah, and I do think that's like a pattern that I see is you know, because some families come to me and they don't even know their child is PDA, and we start this work and we kind of go on that journey of discovery together, and I support them in that and sort of you know, lowering demands and all that kind of stuff. But I think the you know, I've forgotten what I was gonna say now, because I've got ADHD and my brain's gone.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Oh, the choice, the pair of us together. That's it. Come back, you've come back, you're back in the room. Oh, babe, you wait until you hit the perimenopause, it gets even fucking worse. I swear to god, it's knocking at my door. Well, somebody said to me today, actually, am I because obviously I late diagnosed, like literally last month, then somebody said to me, Oh, are you going to just on the ADHD thing? Are you gonna go down the tritition the tritration? Yeah, the tritrician route, I can't fucking say that word, the medication route, anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I said, actually, I don't know if I'm going to because I'm 46 and I've like lived a very colourful life, and I do think that's that's only because I do some, I make some fucking mad decisions and I just do shit. And I do think that if I wasn't ADHD, I probably wouldn't do that. And I don't really want to be. My mate's gone onto it and she's uh onto Elvenase, is that it? Or whatever, yeah, yeah. That's it, and she's like, I've totally stopped daydreaming. And I was like, I quite like daydreaming. Yeah, I know what you mean. And having 20,000 thoughts in a minute, I'm quite down with that.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah, it's funny. I was I'm a recently diagnosed as well, yeah. In January, but I didn't try to titration, but that's it. Like, um, I have started meds actually a couple of weeks ago, but I didn't take them today, which is why and it's just we're going off on one now. We are now, we've got to we've got to focus. How has it made you feel? To be fair, it's actually really helped me focus, which has been really good, especially on like the boring shit that I don't want to do. Yeah, because I said to you um queen of diversionary tactics.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

And for me, because I love to talk, be in the thick of it, be the centre of attention, do everything like practical, like I need to see things, I don't want to fucking read stuff doing this project for for the for education settings because there has been a in this, and I look back at my childhood when I I fucking hated my exams, hated my GCSEs because I couldn't bear the thought, you know, the sitting down, and in my professional job, I have to take exams and all that sort of jazz, and it's and it's just sins me over the edge. But the practical elements are almost absolute fine. I'm like, yeah, I'll fucking do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I find that yeah, I've just completely diverted away from like the I've had you know the sitting down and having to write heavily documents that are because everybody needs to do it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

And that's a big part of my job as well, obviously. And and so, yeah, it has really helped in that area. Like the playing with the kids bit, fine, but then having to sit down and write clinical notes is not yeah, that's not my brain says no, so yeah, so I've just a lot. It has been helping with that, but yeah, I'm I'm just vibing on fresh air today, so that's why this is that's why we keep going on.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

I mean, it's a great day for it. So let's go back to play therapy then. So that's your personal journey, and you then have taken the route to go down and support PDA families. So, what does play therapy look like? For those, you know, there are some parents that are probably listening to this and they may be thinking their child has hasn't got PDA, but obviously Moo goes to a specialist school and he is just finished. It was really beneficial play therapy for him. He has had he's had two blocks of it, so he's had 24 weeks of it nearly since he started. So, yeah, he had it at the end of year two, or well, the last year, he's in age, they're in learning capability classes, not directed by age, even though he's does that make sense, yeah. And he's really loved every minute of his play therapy. So, what does that look like? But trying to get it out of him, what he actually does.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Yeah, no, you can't, you mustn't do that.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

But he's come home with a box of his uh his lessons, his treatment, that's totally the wrong word. Here's the course length is you know, his uh sessions have finished.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Oh, he's come home with all his stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

A massive box of stuff, and I was like, God love a play therapist, but don't send slime back to my house, please. I was like, I fucking hate it, that stresses me out, but anyway, but what does play therapy look like to kids? Well, not even PDAers, obviously, yeah, PDAers, but what play what what does your day-to-day job entail?

SPEAKER_00 9:34

So play therapy is like it's a form of counselling, not psychotherapy for kids, basically. So it's not like you know, it doesn't rely on verbal language, so the toys are their words, basically. Okay, and they communicate how they're feeling through toys, through music, through art, through how moving their bodies. Yeah, it's all very sort of creative, but it's play therapy is very relationship focused, so it's all about how you are in relationship with others, which is essentially, you know, fucking PDA.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Um you know it's it's I mean, play therapy seems like it's the most obvious thing that a child with PDA has to that should have it as a baseline everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Absolutely, because I think it fits so well because the a play therapist child-led it's child-led, it's non-directive, it focuses on complete autonomy for the child. So the children. They can choose what they want to do with the choose what they want to do, they choose what they want to play. It's not directed by me, you know, and I'm and I do work slightly different with PDA children than I would sort of normal children in that you know, I'm a lot more flexible around, you know, when children, you know, some of my PDAs they come and they're like, I'm done now, you know, and I'll be like, okay, you're done, let's go.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

You know, like I'm not and how long would you you know you work in schools, Briany? So how I mean, how long are how does obviously you work private as well, so we'll talk about that at the end of this, actually, because you know, if you are thinking of getting a private play therapist, you obviously work, you know, are self-employed also. But how how would you how do you end up being doing it for kids? Like in terms of do you visit schools, they come to you, or do you have like a shared like communal centre where everybody goes?

SPEAKER_00 11:19

So I currently rent an office, but I'm actually in the process of moving in July. I'm building a cabin in my garden, which it's gonna be like a playroom, yeah, which I'm very excited about because I feel like I don't want I want it to have be as child-friendly and as as clinical, less clinical as it can possibly be, you know. And I think sometimes when children come to an office, it's all very formal, clinical.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Yeah, and I just want them to come in my garden, and also things like PBAs, no, they probably need to play therapy because they've had a traumatising experience through school, and that whole uh you know formal edge formal setting is going to be is too much.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah, absolutely. So I do, and then I do I have a mobile kit as well, so I do go to schools, but I think when I'm considering children that I see at school, I don't see children that are traumatized by school systems in school. No, because that becomes trauma.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Yeah, that totally makes no sense.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

You know, and then they only get to see me if they come into school. No, no, no. So, you know, it's very case dependent whether or not I go into a child school. Most of my clients are private practice. Yeah, um, some I'm part of their EHCP or their Yotas package, some are funding privately. So, yeah, it's a sort of a broad range. So they come for fifty, they get 50 minutes a week, and it's always on the same day, same time every week.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Yeah, that's what we've had, that's what MOOS was. It was always everything.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Yeah, always the same, the layout's the same, the toys the same, I'm the same.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

There's no change in routine, change in expectation.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

It is yeah, yeah, exactly. But you know, so I think when you're if you're thinking about play therapy, like it's when you're working with PDA children, I think, and PDA families, often when families come for play therapy, we're like we're like almost the last stop in their nervous system journey. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 13:09

So it's like shit's got so bad that they are now like clutching on straws.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Yeah, they're like, please help us. And I think that that's really important to think about because you know, if a child's in burnout or they're in nervous system, their nervous system is so shot. Yeah, does that child really need another adult in their life? Does that child really need another demand of therapy? Because therapy is a demand, right? It is to come every week. Yeah, and so sometimes how I work is if a if that's the case, sometimes I work with families first, like parents, and get you know, get get the sort of systems around the child in a better place so that the child becomes more stable and and they start to sort of get more spoons back. Well, you think about the window of tolerance, right? I know you talk about this all the time. I talk about the problem.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

The window tolerance is you know, if you listen to this and you don't know what you're talking about, I'll put it in the show notes actually. But I say this to every single parent and every single school that I speak to. You really need to understand the window of tolerance.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

The window of tolerance is key to understanding these children in capacity. But yeah, if we can widen that window a little bit, then maybe then they can access therapy and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

But on the day when they've got a low tolerance, then you're not going to push it anyway and do anything. It's only when it's they've got that high tolerance.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

And so there's a lot of flex exactly, there's a lot of flexibility there. And I would say to parents, you know, this is very much on the day if they can manage, you know, and there is you know, and sometimes they'll come in, they'll do 10 minutes and then they'll go again.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

But but I think the success rate on it must be really good, Brian, isn't it? Like the buy-in from kids.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

I would Yeah, I think I think what you know, my experience as well, talking to other play therapists that work with PDA children is my experience the experience is a parent whose child has just there's a few things that go on in therapy for these kids, and I think one of them is there's therapy.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

You hear therapy, the word therapy is a parent, you think, oh my god, yeah, that's what are they what are they gonna be doing?

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it's very, you know, I think what what often happens, you know, there's a few things that go on. I think one of them is about reconnecting to safety in relationship, right? These kids have often had been traumatized from relationships. Absolutely. They're traumatized from adults that don't understand them, from schools that have burnt them out. And so my priority is in a way to show them that you adults can be trusted, that relation you can feel safe in relationship, yeah, but you can, you know, it's all about polyvagal theory, nervous system safety.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

I mean, I I was quite slow off the mark pit learning about the polyvagal theory. I've got I mean, hindsight's a fucking wonderful thing, isn't it? I mean, honestly. But it's the rule, but I think it was Christy Forbes actually that I sh I watched a reel of her, I reckon it was last year, maybe it was last year, and then I suddenly the polyvagal theory is mind-blowing, yeah, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Yeah, and and play thoroughly.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Well, explain what the polyvagal theory is because again, there's all these terminologies, isn't there? There's all these terms and these actions. Yeah, yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

I mean, polyvagal theory is essentially what play therapy is built upon, it's about that neurosception of safety. Yeah, it's not just about physical safety, it's feeling safety in your physical body. How important is nervous PDA? That is everything. That is the main focus of a play therapist is to support because we deal with trauma, right? So and it's the same with PDA children, it's about nervous system safety. That is first and foremost connection over any fit, yeah, any learning.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

You know, I I'm finding that the narrative of PDA is so heavily driven by its high levels of anxiety, and you know, there are a lot of big charities out there, there's a lot of big accounts that just bang on it, but it's not about that, it's about making them feel safe, and that's where this is where people constantly and parents are constantly well. We've we've you know, we've implemented this, we've implemented declarative language, we've put you know, we've tried declarative language, we have taken a low demand approach. But I'm like, until you shift that, that you are looking at making them feel safe, and you know, sometimes, and I this is another thing I always say to parents sometimes just saying less is so powerful than you know, and just making them feel safe because be feeling safe doesn't always a feeling, you can't just say, Oh, you're really safe in this house.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

No, exactly, and that's it. I think you've hit the nail on the head there, really. You know, I think there's so much noise out there, and I think you know, so much focus as well is on like the the avoidance of demands in that the name of PDR. Yeah, but ecological demand avoidance fully, but it's but it's also the worst, it's the worst name ever because it focuses what put yeah, demand avoidance. So this is the avoidance of the demand is the behaviour, right? That is the behavior you see, and actually the persistent drive for autonomy, it is the autonomy that is central to everything with PDA kiddos, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

And that's and I I feel that the narrative of shifting a lot more now away from pathological demand avoidance, it is shifting more to persistent drive to autonomy.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Because PDA kids, they do, you know, they want to but adults, adult PDAs, and I this and and it was interesting.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

I did a post about this on my Instagram ages ago, and I was really, really because every parent that I speak to, you know, and I've you know, we've had over 500 parents in the PDA parent circle over the last sort of 16 months, and we are generally normally the same. You know, the words I mean, I know that when pathological demand avoidance put on my radar, I was like, fucking hell, he sounds like a psycho.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Psycho, yeah, it's horrible.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

It's a really horribly horrible terminology, anyway. Then this post was really interesting to read the comments from adult PDAs that were saying, actually, if we take it away from the fact it's a drive for autonomy, actually, as they have gotten older, they feel that pathological demand avoidance is better, more age appropriate, because the pathologizing part of it, it's instilled in them, it's a part of them. Yeah, and I said maybe it's just because my kids are younger and I feel that I feel like you know, the avoidance of demands, like I find not fully like listen, it doesn't matter whatever you do in the world, whatever you implement, there is absolutely no way you can fully avoid demands.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

No, but also I feel like children and PDAs absolutely can comply with demands, and they want to how demand is presented, it's how it's presented to them, and if they feel yeah they have autonomy and choice and power and control, that is the central thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Yeah, they feel safe. Matt, since Move started, it is Esse Major School, and obviously the trigger for us, and I and I I I don't ever want to traumatize and put fear of God in two parents, but the reality is for us the trigger was school, and the trigger genuinely generally for a lot of PDAs is school because the system's not designed for autonomy control. Yeah, um, and you know, since you started school, it you know, the the stress bucket, everybody has got a capacity but and a stress bucket, you know, as adults, you and I, I can I can empty my bucket, chuck a couple of glasses of water out, and I'm on a bit of more of an even keel. Obviously, we know that a PDA's bucket can go very quickly and it can fluctuate. The fluctuation as well is a massive thing that could is it is also to be considered just because something you've had a bit of a lull one day doesn't mean it's not just gonna overflow the next day. Yeah, but I um I remember saying you know, he is like a different kid, but now his autonomy is being honoured at school and he feels safe, he feels secure, you know, he knows his transport driver, he knows the routine, the boundaries, and his compliance is sometimes better than his twin brother, who's just got ADHD because he's yeah, he's super compliant. But then I always think is that that crossover then of the autism side, because obviously his twin brother is not autistic, yeah, yeah, but but he's very compliant and he follows the compliance path because is that his autism and he likes a set routine and he likes and he likes to follow instructions where it's Jake's like me, like wow, just doesn't give a shit, jump straight in feet first, ask later.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, and I think that comes back actually to like what we're saying earlier about kind of what I see in therapy, and one of them is kind of that relationship, learning to trust others again, but also I feel like when kids are at school, and sometimes when they're not as well, but therapy can become a little bit like a holding space where they get to equalize with a therapist in a safe and therapeutic way that can be held and contained for them, and sometimes that is the Therapy that they just get to they it almost gives them some spoons back, you know. If you think about spoon theory, yeah, totally. I mean, they get that equalizing, they get to feel like bucket slowly getting yeah, and then it just tops up their little bucket enough then for them to go back out, you know. And I think sometimes, you know, I always feel like with these kids, they can if we set goals or targets with parents, they can sniff it out. Oh, like there is that if there's an agenda in that room that you know, and it's like shut down. Absolutely game over. So, you know, I'm really reluctant to kind of set things like that. I think we I like to wait and see to see how the children respond and to see what they're never gonna know that they need to work on, you know, and what they want to do.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah, because PDA is you know, I've said this, I always say this and I say it time and time again. You know, you've met one autistic child, you've met one autistic child, you've met one PDA, you've met one PDA, they are all so different, yeah. And I think there's a lot of complexities with PDA, just with kids in general, you know. Some days we go sometimes Moo is he will he could be a bit of a bit of a nightmare drifting off to sleep. That can take you know that you know that coming down, but he will sleep all through the night, but he is a sucker for getting up. But there's so many kids that struggle to get sleep, don't stay asleep, or night need co-regulation uh throughout the night time, and then you get all that chucked in, and they might be incredibly you know, they might have RFID as well, so they've got restricted food eating disorders, and then you don't want to piss off a fucking tired and uh hungry PDA, also I mean that's a recipe for disaster, yeah, yeah, yeah. But in terms of what you do then, the play therapy, what does that look like in terms of what sort of what do you play? What do you do with them?

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Well, I mean, the room is full of loads of different things. There's puppets, there's construction, there's messy stuff, there's sensory staff, there's slime. Slime, yes, there's sand, and they can do sand tray stuff. So I'm I'm also a qualified sand story practitioner, so sometimes I've worked out.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Wow, that is an epic accolade to have Brian on your CV. I love that. Movie play therapy. He came home with a um, oh, I should have showed you it. You come home with a it's like a bottle, you've got slime in it and glitter and you shake it. Oh god, what's the call? Like a little sensory bottle. Yeah, that's it. Brain fog. It's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

I was like, wow, yeah, so it's all out. I mean, it's all out, it's all on display for kids, and they just come and they choose what they want to do, and it's very led by them. So often, like if I'm role play, if we're like playing a game, like that we're playing shops, for example, yeah. You know, I always check in with kids. If they're like, Well, or you're the teacher, and I'm like, okay, like I wonder if am I a bossy teacher or am I a nice teacher? So I'm always constantly checking in with them, like, how do you want me to play this role? What am I gonna say? You know, so it's it gives them so much autonomy about how they need to play this out and how they want to do that, you know. And you know, so there's constant like stage whispers, we call it where we're like just checking in, like, am I doing it right? Or you know, whatever it is, you know, that you need to just sort of allow them to take the story where they need it to go. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Are you and here's my PDF? Oh hi! Oh hi, Moo, you're gonna be on the podcast. We're recording the podcast. You can say hello to everybody if you want. All people are gonna be watching. Well, listening, go on, how just say do you want to say hi? Hello so Brian, he's a play therapist. How good was your play therapy at school? Weren't we? Were we good? You loved it, didn't you? Can you tell what did you can you tell everybody what did you do? So anybody that's wondering, I haven't taken my kid out of school. This he's had a they've had a water league, so we had to go and clutch it. No, they turn off the water supplies. They turned off the water supply. But tell everybody what did you do in your play therapy, Max, that you loved? Built a bottle. Built a bottle, sensory bottle. I was just telling Brian Ian and wait no, I'm gonna go get some. I'm gonna but nobody's gonna see it because we're recording this, but it's gonna be it'll but yeah, you can go and show it for Brian if you want. And what else have you done at play therapy? Lots of things, a lot of things, okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

A lot of things.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Do you know what he just said? And this is so good, but none of it involves you, which is so good because his relationship with his play therapist exactly, and one of the things special, absolutely, and one of the things that as a play therapist that I hold is the confidentiality of the space child.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

So it's what they say and what they play, I don't share with parents unless it's a safeguarding risk and I have but you know, I think holding that space for them, knowing that they can show me all sides of themselves because children, you know, if they've gone through trauma, they've gone through hard times, or they're having big feelings. Often they want to protect those that they love the most. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

And they don't ever want to feel that they've thrown somebody under the bath. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

So they don't need to protect me, so often I do get more.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

That's exactly what I was telling Brian about Moo. So go on, you can for those of you that are listening. Moose gone to go and get his sensory bottle that he made. Go on. Look at that. You get a good old shape, it's cool, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 27:14

I can see all sorts in there, which includes little turtles.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Turtles, you loved all the little turtles that your play therapist had, didn't you? Yeah, loads of little turtles. But yeah, and I love that fact that it's strictly smoke. No, what? I love the fact that it was strictly that it is strictly private and confidential for the children.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Yeah, and then every sort of six sessions that I see a child, I meet with parents once, and we talk about that. So I'm when I'm playing with a child, I'm looking at the themes that are coming up in their play. Yeah. So are there kind of themes around power and control or whatever it is that's coming up? And then I talk about the themes with parents, but I don't talk explicitly about what children play or say. Yeah, I think it's really important that you know that's there's a level of confidentiality with the kids.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I think as parents as well, you always want to know everything that your kids do. And in my perfect, I got to swear. Did you? There you go, you see. Yeah, of course you can.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Yeah, because I think that's obviously one thing that is can be quite prevalent with PDAs, can be yeah, they can say whatever they need to do.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Well, it's not swearing.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

I don't know. You don't be okay. No, yeah, you've got good at rhyming it in it because it's not. This is another thing that we've had to that we have to, as PDA parents have to let go of is actually that it's not swearing. A lot of Matt Moo will only swear when he's equalising, and that's you're gonna go and get food, are you? Okay, do you wanna okay? Um, is when he's thank you very much. I love your little sensory bottle. Keep it here, I'm shake it just in case I want to shake it. Thank you, darling. Don't go eat in it don't open it. I don't, I won't open it, don't worry. I don't would not want green stuff all over my computer, but thank you very much. Plus, it doesn't spill.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Yeah, my my son's the same, it's always in the equalising when their swearing comes out or the middle finger.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

And the middle finger, middle finger is a very, very you know, somebody said to me ages ago that's the PDA salute, which absolutely made me laugh out loud. I thought that's really, really yeah, really funny. Yeah, it is but on. And so if you uh if there are any parents listening to this that are struggling, you know, how can they how can they get play therapy? Whether or not it's with you, if you're in Surrey, this is where Brian and I live in Surrey, so I'm gonna I will put Brianie's website in the show notes as well. But how how do you go about getting play therapy? If you if you see if your children are in a specialist school, it's normally sort of comes with the funding side, doesn't it? But if you are thinking that play therapy, I'll present you doggy. Oh, this is doggy. Tell him tell everybody what sort of dog have you got? I have a German shepherd. And what sort of dog is he though? What sort of what does he do? What's his job? What who does he work for? Job works for the work for mummy. Oh, it works for me. If people wanted to uh you know use their DLA or do how would they how do people get how would they get play therapy sorted?

SPEAKER_00 30:24

So there's lots of different ways I think there's obviously private practice, so if you're looking for privately, go on the BAPT website. BAPT. Yeah, so that's the British Association of Play Therapists, which is a member of, and I recommend going on there because we're trained at master's level, so we all sort of know we know our stuff, and there's you hear so many things, you know, play therapy is not a protected title, so anyone can call themselves a play therapist. It's a bit like psychotherapy and counselling, it's all a bit like sleep therapists as well.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

I mean, there's been a lot of backlash about sleep consultants this week after be after the accredited.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

So B A P T. Um I'll show you in a bit, darling. And they've got like a search bar on there so you can put in like whether you're south-east, northwest, wherever.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Okay, amazing. So people can like get it geographically relevant to what they are.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

So you can so yeah, you can fund privately, absolutely. In Surrey, if you go through mind works, you will get paper normally. But I think with mind works, you only get a short amount of time. I think it's about nine sessions, which has been a lot of people. Yeah, I think that's a relationship. Yeah, we know it's it's not a lot, it's not a lot of time. Not a lot, you know. When you think Max, he's had how many 24 sessions?

SPEAKER_01 31:38

So he's had two 12 blocks. He had a 12 block at the end of they must have finished probably this time last year, and then they rolled it on quite quickly to when they went back in September. So he's just finished it. He literally brought the box of goodies home.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yeah, so nine nine sessions is you know, is you know, is I mean, yeah, he's got his annual review in 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

So I'm just gonna I'm obviously gonna try and mention again that play therapy is super beneficial because he loves it. Yeah, yeah. He's come his play therapist sent home uh a bookmark of those two on it, and yeah, it's just so sweet. Oh, his golden time at school, he's one of the things is because he was really, you know, in true, you know, one of the PDA traits is not that obsession, but getting you know, it coming to the end, and he was starting to get quite worried about it because I think he's found it such a great way to channel out any sort of worries or concerns in a in a pub in a space that's so private for him. Yeah, um, because I think that's what freaks a lot of parents out, is whatever your kids are saying, and you're not there.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

I mean, yeah, it is a it is hard to not know. And I've been on, you know, my son had played through.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Oh mate, same, babe. I'm the same. I was a bit like fucking hell, what's he gonna say? I know the process, you know, when he's you know, when he's equalising, he tells me that I'm gonna shit my money away sometimes. So it's it's so I it is but it's not you know, my that's it.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

I I I'm the I'm in the same boat, you know. My son had play therapy and I know the process, but sitting in that not knowing is really, really hard. Like it is, you want to do it.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

It is hard, but then I think that's one of the biggest thing, as we know with PDA, is that you the trust that you have to have with them is just absolutely if you break the trust or they feel that they're doing something, you know, especially knowing so much from the start that they that the trust is one-on-one and it's between them and the play therapist is so important. But that's how you can get play therapy.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Um, and any if anybody's listening to this, what would be your top tip? If people wanted to, if people I don't know, don't feel comfortable with it, can they do sort of play therapy at home? And what would be your top suggestions? Because we know that especially PDAs, I'd say younger PDAs, well, and older, because what age do would you suggest play therapy is really really suitable up to middle teens? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

So so it all depends on your play therapist experience. Um when you're trained at master's level, you're trained for a roughly sort of age four to twelve. Okay. And then lots of play therapists go on to kind of do further training for adolescents and stuff like that. And I think it all depends on cognitive age rather than chronological.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Yeah, totally. But then, but yeah, then absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

So it's kind of you know, it's kind of uh, you know, however your child will respond really and how they make use of the space. But I think, you know, if if you're looking at sort of, I think having special playtime at home with your PDA is can be super, super beneficial as well. And you know, just sort of having a dedicated 45 minutes where they get to direct you, they get to make the play up, they get to cheat, they get to bend the rules. So if you're playing snakes and ladders, let them cheat their pants off. Let them completely.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

That's one thing that I learned the very hard way is that there's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Yeah, let them win and let them games let them feel that sense of power and autonomy and control and let them experience that and equalize and just go along with it, you know, and check in. Like if they're like, Well, you're the policeman, check in. Well, how am I a good policeman? Am I a bad? Oh, okay. You know, just give them as much as let them lead. And just let them lead, yeah. But often, you know, when I try because I'm a playtherist, if I try and do sort of a therapeutic playtime with my son, he goes, Why are you talking to me like that? Because he knows that that's not how I normally shouting and you know, or whatever, but he's like, Why are you why are you you're weird? Like you're so weird. I mean, you have to take it, but any sort of playtime, special playtime with a grown-up, one undivided attention, one-on-one, where they get to win and be autonomous and have that control is going to be beneficial.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

And yeah, but that is perfect, and I always think as well, something that works really powerful for us is I mean, I don't give a shit about Minecraft, but what Max he loves sharing that special interest watching him, watching him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't know how to play it, and I'm to be honest, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Sometimes they just want to be seen in totally in their interest, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Oh, Brian, it's been such a pleasure having you on. I know, thank you for having me. Oh my god, I can't believe you did that. I can't believe that you only live 10 minutes up the road from each other. I know that's nuts. Yeah. To have a meetup, like without the kids, I think it was probably gonna be a good idea. I mean, but Maxie, the more the older he's getting, the better he's obviously the the twins will be nine in October. So Max, we've seen a real change in how he's been able to self-advocate for himself as well. Like he will say, but from like maturity, probably a bit of play therapy. If he's actually capable now of he knows if he is is we're starting to see that he can be sometimes he's like, nah, I can't do that today.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yeah, I think that's amazing, and I think going back to how you can sort of get play therapy. Sometimes I am, you know, play therapy can be named on EHCPs, yeah, part of EOTAS packages, yeah, because if we feel that kind of emotional regulation support, so you know, it doesn't art therapy, music therapy, but you know, I think how do you get, and I know there's a lot of parents that are in the PDA circle and also that follow my Instagram that are going down the EOTAS route.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

How do you get play therapy on an in on education other than a school package?

SPEAKER_00 37:19

I don't know specifically how you get it named. I just know that I work with families that have it named. Okay, perfect. And then you specifically say Yeah, because obviously when they're looking at kind of meeting the needs of the child, yeah, you know, and obviously in there you have like emotional, social, you know, for him to say, for example, a child to be able to name their emotions more and do that sort of thing. Normally you can put in uh some kind of therapeutic support for that emotional regulation. So it might be music therapy, play therapy, art therapy, whatever, but that's normally that kind of SEMH stuff is normally where you can put in for therapy. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

We'd never asked for it, and then they just his specialist school, which is obviously an SEMH school, were the ones that you know we think it's gonna be really, really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Yeah, absolutely. I think it is so helpful for so many children to build that self-worth, their identity, their confidence, yeah, their social skill, all of that stuff. Like it's just really, really helpful for children in so many ways. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

So, Brianny, your website is uh I asked you this earlier. So, for those of you that are listening, your website is called Let Everybody Know so they can come and find you. It's sanctuaryplaytherapy.com. Sanctuaryplaytherapy.com. I will link it into the show notes as well for this week.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Amazing, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

But thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Oh, thank you. It's been really fun. Oh, amazing. Thanks so much.