Louis, The Manosphere & PDA

This week I watched the new documentary from Louis Theroux on Netflix which was about the Manosphere and it really got me thinking about the vulnerability of boys with PDA.

Let me know what you thought to the documentary and as always please download, subscribe, rate and review to the pod!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back. I am your host, Jesse Towns, and this is the Keeping Shit Real Podcast, a podcast for parents and neurodivergent kids. Welcome back. This is episode three of season two. How is everybody doing? Can I just say, if you live in the United Kingdom, I mean this week has been an absolute dream boat for weather, hasn't it? I mean, it's absolutely insane. And I just can't get over how nice the weather's been. I'm loving my life. But this week I wanted to have a I just wanted to talk about some of the mad stuff that's kind of been happening. And I don't know where you've been living, if you are under a rock, I don't know where you are, but the nervous disposition that I felt after watching the Louis Thoreau Manosphere documentary that has currently gone onto Netflix. Now, you know me by now, guys. I hope that I've got an eight-year-old son, he's got PDA, and he obviously has a drive for autonomy, you know, and he does suffer from resistance of you know being in survival mode, of when we're asking him to do things. That is the that's just how his brain is working. But then I watched the Louis Thoreau documentary and it kind of gave me I'm not gonna lie, it kind of gave me the fucking fear. I just thought, fuck, what is going on? What is gonna happen in years to come? Do you know what I mean? And I kind of felt like that whole I think it's always that shoulda, woulda coulda aspect, isn't it? But I kind of felt that that toxic masculinity could kind of fit quite well with a child that has PDA. So for those of you that haven't watched it, we obviously all know who Louis Threw is. He's an amazing journalist, uh, does some amazing documentaries, but this is more, I think this is he's done this documentary really added on the back of as we've all seen, I'm sure we've all seen Adolescence last year, the Stephen Graham short uh drama with the amazing, that lovely young lad called Owen. God, I can't remember his name, but you know the one I'm talking about, and it obviously was. I mean, when I watched Adolescence, I was fucking I couldn't speak for a good hour. I was literally devastated. I just couldn't believe it. So I think it shocks so many people about red pill, blue pill, toxic masculinity that Louis Thoreau has obviously decided to roll with this documentary. There are some very famous males in the manosphere. But if you haven't seen it, the manosphere really just sells itself as if you don't know what the manosphere is, if you've not seen adolescence and you've not seen the Louis Thoreau documentary, the manosphere basically sells itself on self-improvement. It's like fitness, confidence, like basic masculinity. But the ideology underneath it is very, very sick and it's very, very dark, it's very misogynistic. But the whole point is the whole ethos of the manosphere is that it targets insecure young men by offering them like a script, uh, like a script, like a pathway, so to speak, for like social success. It's like they found their like tribe, and I don't want to say tribe because I've got my own tribe of PDA parents in the PDA parents circle, but it's like a sense of belonging and a sense of purpose. So for me, I think I felt quite nervous about it because you know I do have an autistic son, and he is and he's and he's a boy, and but it made me really, really think about fucking hell, like they're really our children are really, really vulnerable. We obviously know that the adolescence Netflix drama bought a lot more, they brought it into the sort of our living rooms, and it was it was a drama, but the Louis Threw documentary was just so much darker because you know they followed around like these YouTubers that are in the manosphere. But for me as a parent, I I think the bit that made my stomach drop was just just how there was a few things that really made my stomach turn. I think one of them was right at the end when his mum turned, it's HS Tiki Toki. I I'm not I'm not gonna give you their full names because they're just not worth the fucking airwaves to you know, like to go googling them or looking at them on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, but one of them was called HS Tiki Talkie. Now I just thought what a fucking idiot to start with. But when his mum came along, you know, this this this kid from the Manosphere went to a privately educated school, yet his dad was a very his dad was a famous ex-England rugby player, and he had quite an affulent life, but there's obviously daddy issues going on here because there was one clip of when he went to go meet his dad, and his dad had not really had anything to do with him his entire life. So I always find that there's a there is a bit of a root sometimes, not all the time. We know from the Netflix documentary, the Netflix drama, sorry, the adolescence one, that there was actually the you know, he'd had a very good life, a very good upbringing, came from a family, but it doesn't take long if your child is remotely vulnerable to be able to get caught into this misogynistic manosphere circle. So before sort of go making any big connections, like what is PDA like? How does and a lot of you may not even know what PDA is? It basically stands for pathological demand avoidance, but now we prefer to call it persistent drive for autonomy. It does sit within the autism spectrum or the ADHD spectrum, and it does look very, very different to any other sort of neurodiversity. PDA kids will always appear quite social normally, they're on the surface, but any demands, something enjoyable, something that they even love doing can trigger a real serious threat response. It it I don't believe it's really driven by anxiety, it's driven by loss of autonomy, and that creates that sense that having that no sense of safety gives fear. There is a bit of anxiety there, I suppose, but if a child is when they're when their autonomy feels threatened, their nervous system treats it like danger. Well, does that danger interpret anxiety? You can argue that it can, but I'm starting to feel that it's not, and it's not defiance. This is what it's not, and it's not bad parenting, it's a fundamentally a different way of just experiencing the world and the threat that we see. So for me, the whole manashere sort of agenda and topic. So when I PDA for us looks in our houses, you know, we spend a lot, you know, my children they do spend time online. I've got an elder son who's 17, and he's very aware of toxic masculinity and just thinks that they're all dickheads, thank God. But the heart of the episode is that the connection that nobody was really, really talking about that I kind of felt like it overlapped with if you've got a child with PDA. So the manosphere, it's not accidentally, it's not what's how am I trying to get this? It's not appealing to PDA brains, but it's built on exactly, I feel what PDA boys are probably sort of like craving for. And it's the thing is it kind of sells the autonomy. So one thing that PDA kids desperately need is autonomy, and the manosphere, the whole sort of the whole what's the word? I can't get my words out. The whole emphasis on the manosphere is that nobody controls you and that you make your own rules and that you answer to nobody. Do you know what I mean? And that for me was I was like, fucking hell, this is really worrying because for a PDA, for a boy who spent years being managed, corrected, and pathologised, that message hits quite differently. And I just felt it also completely the manosphere, it can it validates a massive distrust in like the entire system. And we obviously know that kids with PDA, they clash with schools, they clash with authority, there's rigid systems. By you know, by young teens, they may have been excluded from school, disciplined, told that they are the problem because people aren't aware of what PDA is, and then again that links into the manosphere. The manosphere is like you were right, you've got to distrust the rules, the system shit, the system can't be trusted, and it is designed the whole manosphere is designed to keep you down, and it's not recruitment, it's it's making these young boys, these young teenagers feel like they've got an element of relief. And I just thought, fucking hell, like this is this could be really dodgy territory with boys that are PDA, and I think PDA and anxiety, you know, they can go hand in hand. I don't agree overly, but the manosphere gives a quite a rigid hierarchy, like it's very clear rules, simple answered, in simple answers, answers. Sorry, it offers certainty in a world that does feel quite chaotic, probably, to a young teenage boy. And I just for any brain that struggles, it can be incredibly what's the word, attractive, seductive, you know, having been able to have that autonomy by the way in which they are accepted in a world that feels way less chaotic. And some of the strategies that I thought that we, you know, that we are told to use when we're talking about managing PDA is a compliance system is connecting, but all this stuff that we're told we're not to use is you know, compliance, rewards, punishment, and demands. But they may be. I just felt that there was an element that I just thought, do a teenage boy, they get to the adolescence and they're already convinced that the world is really hostile because they've been, you know, people haven't dealt with them, you know, neuroaffirmingly, and they are feeling that you know they've had barked at them their entire sort of secondary education, like about compliance and rewards, punishments, and demands. But by the time they get to these young adolescent ages, that they're actually quite hostile already, and they're in a you know, they want to rebel back because nobody's giving a shit about them, and then the algorithm, i.e., TikTok, whatever, then hands them these fucking lunatics that you know on this toxic masculinity flex, and they just end up feeling accepted by it. I know someone's I know you're probably thinking, Fucking hell, Jesse, he's only eight though. And I was thinking, I know he's only eight, but I couldn't stop thinking about it, thinking any parent who thinks they've got time with their kids, you haven't because I have got a 17-year-old, it's gonna be I've got a 17-year-old neurotypical son. I tell you what, it goes through a blink of an eye. You know, the content regarding the manosphere and toxic masculinity, it is already hitting primary schools. Do you know what I mean? It could be through older your older brother and sister, friends, gaming, YouTube. If we are not, you know, being quite very careful of what we are letting our kids play on, what we're letting them watch, what we're restricting. It is getting to eight-year-old kids, even younger. And the thing is, the values that we've got, and you know, the story of any child is about them and how they are being sort of formed right now, and it's about these values when they're young at this age, the difference between right and wrong. And the reality is you can't just think, oh, they're only eight and be ignorant to it because the world is a scary place. When I was young, you know, nothing ever like that would have ever happened because it's it's one of those that you always think, oh, it's never gonna happen to me. But you've got to be prepared, it might happen. The thing is, the algorithm, the internet, it just doesn't wait for anybody, they don't give a fucking shit how old your kids are. But the reality is like, what can you actually do? And it got me thinking, like, how can I protect my kids? What can I do? I've got three boys. My oldest son is very, very, very switched on. And he will he will do the you know, he he's been I think once he was in year 11, his last year of secondary school when adolescence was first aired, and then they ended up watching it at school. But he knew, I was saying to him, like, I it was like really, really kind of like the first I know I'd have heard of it a little bit, but I kind of when I was questioning him about it, he knew all about it, and I was a little bit shocked. I felt a little bit stupid that I had never had this conversation with him before, but hey, that you know, it is what it is. But I think we need to have real honest conversations, um, and there are no easy fixes to this. You know, you can't ban things from people. You can't tell a kid with PDA they cannot do something because it almost guarantees when you tell your kids they can't absolutely categorically cannot do something, fucking hell, they're gonna go and do it. Of course they are, and it's it's about having these open and honest conversations with our kids because I'm gonna be, you know, I am really worried about my, you know, about Maxie and his vulnerability because he's PDA and he's autistic, and I don't want him feeling like he's gone through life, absolutely hating life and having to fight through a system. But I don't know, what do you feel? It's I think it's these are conversations that we really, really do need to have. But I think it's also about giving them, giving our kids like the real choices, giving them power in life now so that they know. I I've I the way I felt the Manosphere documentary was it was like these kids, these young boys, they're not kids, they well, they are kids, they're in their fucking 20s, they still know do you know what I mean? But they think they're the mandem. It's it I felt that there was something missing in their life, whether and a lot of them, and and a lot of them didn't have father figures, they've been brought up by their mums, single parent families, and they got very misogynistic views to life and what was going on, and and I just think you know, even if you are a single parent, we can still have these open and honest and transparent conversations with our kids because we can, you know. I mean, everybody knows who that fucking wanker to Andrew Tate is. Do you know what I mean? But it's in terms of like kids with PDA, it's you know that driving for autonomy, it's not a flaw, uh and it's not to be corrected. We need to work with him, and we know that. And it is a core part of who my kid is, is that he has got PDA. But the more it's treated as a problem, the more he's gonna see try and seek it out of people who will find it as a strength, you know. And you look at people like Andrew Tate, who are just I mean, God knows, where is he now? Is he in jail somewhere? I don't know. I fucking hope I never see him again. But again, it's about focusing on connection and over correction, and we know that when lowering demands and building trust slowly, there is like a radical acceptance of what might you know what our kids can actually manage right now. But the same approach also works when you talk to them about the world and about your kids and about what is what is important and what isn't okay, and how men, young men, young boys should treat women. Because if you the manosphere documentary, I mean it was quite I mean there was parts of it that made me absolutely laugh out loud because it was so cringy, you know. The thing is they all want the thing is with the Manosphere Flex, they all want this massive ideology of you know, they want women to take care of them, they want to have this happy thing, but at the same time, they also treat are treating them and talking to them like absolute dog shit. So it was all very, very double standard, and I kind of couldn't get my head around that. And it was one of those that I just thought, wow. But it's when you've got when you've got your own child and they're vulnerable, it doesn't they don't even have to be neurodivergent. Do you know what I mean? Like kids are vulnerable, and we know kids have got smartphones, they can click on anything at the click of a button. And I don't want to be raising a statistic, do you know what I mean? I'm raising my own kid, and I just felt that the the the documentaries kind of really freak me out because I can exactly see exactly how easy these kids can get very quickly influenced and go down these rabbit holes of being misogynistic and hating on the world, and um, and it's obviously not who my kid is now, and he won't be that child, but it's it is our responsibility to to make sure that we are not being difficult, you know, we're having open and honest conversations and we're not ignoring the fact that you know the internet is a wild place now. And I the one of the one of the other things is when you look at a kind of a therapeutic approach, I suppose, to PDA, and it is about focusing on that, that radical acceptance of what the of what they are capable of. And never underestimate a child with PDA because we know that they are very, very intelligent, they're very quick to pick things up, and they are just just on the ball all the time. And if there is any air of any air of you know, forcing or not understanding, or having that radical acceptance of what PDA looks like, I just felt like having a child with PDA, like this the whole toxic masculinity thing could have gone really, really could I can see how it could really really be attractive to a teenage PDA, and that's what I'm trying to say. I'm not gonna say, like, listen, our kids have got PDA, they're all gonna fucking turn into Andrew Tate. That is absolutely not what I'm saying, but what I am saying is I feel like specifically the toxic masculinity, it is and it is a it is could be quite easy because it you know some of our children go to specialist schools. I've just been to my son's specialist school today, and it's an all-boys school, so I can kind of see you know, not every child comes from a really loving and uh you know upbringing and home life. And I just I don't know, maybe I'm just stressing myself out, I don't know, but I did think wow, this is it is quite insane, and you know, our jobs are stressful enough as parents, but it's I just always wanted to let let my kids know that I am their safe person, and if they want, if they're ever ever worried about absolutely anything, that they can they've always got me, and it doesn't matter if if they if they've done something stupid, I would rather them tell me instead of the you know the old bill knocking at the door. But I'm I'm not joking, like these lads on this manosphere, they are making so much money, and it seems to be I think Louis invested I think 500 quid into like his I think it was crypto. Was it crypto? I'm pretty sure it's crypto. Listen, I'm 46, I don't get crypto. That is way off my radar. I just don't get crypto whatsoever. I don't really know what it means. Well, I know what it is, I know, but I don't know how you trade it and how you get any money back, but I kind of felt that it a lot of it was bullshit. So I think they all started straight away with they all started selling online fitness courses, and then they're just I mean, there was one really savage bit where they were just filming, they kicked off and started basically beating a random geezer up on the side of the street and like filming it because everything is live streamed, people can comment and then they can aggravate and they can antagonise the situation and be like, yeah, punch him in the head, yeah, pull her bikini off, let's see her tits. I mean, it was really, really insane, and I and I just thought, mate, I don't think you get girls doing this sort of shit. Do you know what it which but again there will be the equivalent in terms of girls? I mean, for girls, it's probably you know, it's probably the nastier side of girls, that toxic behaviour of gaslighting. I mean, is there a is there a uh is there an opposite of the manosphere? I don't know, for the female female sphere, I don't know. But it's just one of those that is quite concerning that it's really, really on the app as well. So that's where I am. I don't know, let me know and let me know what you thought to it. Have you seen it? If you've seen it, I'd really interested to know your your take on it of a parent to a neurodivergent child. So, what else are we going to cover today? So, listen, do you know what? I wanted to say thank you very much for everybody just always are so supportive. Um, I've I'm just so happy with the community that I've got and that I've built and that you have become a part of. It's made me a much better parent. I hope I've helped people along the way. Even I do try my hardest to reply to every single DM on my Instagram, and I do apologise if no, if you are listening to this and I haven't replied to you, can you just send me another DM? Because I reply to everything as soon as I quickly as possibly as I can, but I know some days I'm really shit. The PDA Parent Circle is open for joining 17 pounds a month. It is absolutely life-changing. You could stay for a month, use all of the resources, watch all of the live sessions. We've got everything from explosive behaviour to declarative language to siblings to holidays, and then you can cancel it, or you could stay for six weeks, six months, a year, stay in the group chat. I mean, our group chat is absolutely popping off. I cannot tell you how rewarding it is knowing that feeling validated and seen when you've got a kid who's got PDA, and that you know, some days, let's be honest, it can be a fucking car crash. I mean, I've had a pretty good run of it for a week, but I've not had too many mental situations, I'm not gonna lie. But I am also very aware that I should now I've just said that out loud, it's probably going to be mental, and it's there's probably gonna be a couple of things, but it is it's one of those where I just I just love the PDA parent tribe. I mean, they're just such a bunch of G's. Come and join us. We are an absolute who we are living our best life. Moaning, whinging, laughing, crying, you name it, we do it, and it's a fabulous bunch of people. It's 17 pounds. I'll put the link in the show notes. And somebody did ask me last week about the Nestie. If you the Nestie is a compression pod, also an absolutely fantastic piece of I wasn't gonna say equipment, regulatory tools. I cannot tell you how amazing it is. It's a compression sock. I've got a code Jesse10, give you 10% off. The boys at Nestie have worked so hard on it. The material is so beautiful, and it's just it is a go to for regulation. I'm not even joking. It's Friday. I'm gonna love you and leave ya. Take care. Thanks for live listening and love you. Bye.